ComplaintsforCincinnati RetroFoam

• Initial Complaint

  12/01/2023

  Complaint Type:

  Service or Repair Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  We contracted Retrofoam to spray foam our home to begin on 10/31/2023. The below escalated ending ultimately with us asking the team to leave on November 7th, 2023. The owner, Dan called after hours of beginning on 10/31 to tell us that they are leaving the job because he was told that we do not have any money to pay them and demanded that we give them more money. Dan had been asking our contractors about our personal finances and fishing for personal information about us. Because of how our construction draw works, we had worked out an arrangement with Pam, the other owner to pay a 20% down, an $8000 deposit (instead of the normal 50%). Dan felt like we were lying to him and became incredibly belligerent, calling me a liar, mocking me- in a baby voice- saying that we cried poor, yelling at us and demanding that we give them our financial statements and that we pay additional money or they would stop working. His team left after only laying 1/4 of the plastic down and refused to both return the job or refund us until we paid more. Sadly, we gave in and paid them an additional 30%, ($11,300) to just get the job done and move on. Due to a banking mishap, our second check was returned. Even though our bank took full responsibility, Dan was belligerent and threatening. I was incredibly apologetic and offered to either wire them the money that day or they could redeposit. Ultimately things escalated to where I felt unsafe having him in our home and ended the agreement. The crew finished a total of 20% of the project. When I told him we would no longer be using his company, he was “glad that we fired them”, as though he had been trying to get us to do that all along. They redeposited the check and now have received $19,300 of our money (50% of the quote) and have only completed 20% of the job. They are refusing to refund any portion of our money for the work not completed because they have a contract that says if the customer cancels they get to keep all of the money.

  

  Business response

  12/18/2023

  I am in business to complete jobs, make customers happy and make a profit. I never want to have an issue with anyone. I understand things happen and it is best to try and resolve them as quickly as possible.
  Spray foam will put off a fine mist while spraying. This mist will travel wherever the air moves, so we MUST cover/protect everything that we do not want the foam or mist to get on. We could be spraying on one side of the house and the air will carry the mist to the other side. If it gets outside, it could damage everything including any vehicles. We must be extremely careful. This will make sense as you read.
  We did not want to get fired as ****** stated. The text on my phone proves that I was trying to get the bad check resolved. There is no reason I would want to be fired.
  Spray foam expands 100X of what we spray. It is very hard to spray it at 5 ½ “. Normally it is sprayed about 6-7” thick and then trimmed for drywall. This is industry practice. I assume, this is what ****** calls “Overspray”. We spray the foam, and it expands. We trim the foam flat for drywall. Then we clean up the entire job and haul the trimmed foam away. We did not spend time cleaning up the foam, because I was hoping we would get this resolved and be back the next day.
  We are a very small family owned and operated business. Because the cost of materials is so expensive, we ask for 50% down and the balance due at completion. ****** told us that she had a SCHEDULED BANK DRAW November 6th and asked if she could give less to start (20%) and catch up the other 30% on November the 6th. We agreed to help her out in her situation.
  I always take lots of pictures before, during and after we are finished. The room she is saying I was not allowed to take pictures of, I had already taken several pictures because we were to spray an area of one of the walls in that room. To also show the condition of the Mural before we started, the number of items in that room and that the dividing walls were missing, to show it is impossible to protect anything and to show we couldn’t get to the wall to spray it.
  
  ****** talks about me showing up unannounced without them there. Me and my guys are working there. They should expect me to show up at a minimum to oversee the work.
  ****** also said, “speaking negatively about us to his crew, even attempting to get our worker engaged.” I was telling my workers what was going on and why we were leaving. Her worker kept following me around as we were packing up to leave. I assume it was at ******** direction. So, if he heard what I was telling my workers, I couldn’t help that. I don’t know what she meant by getting her worker engaged.
  The day before we were scheduled to start, I did arrive unannounced (because I was in the area with another appointment) to make sure everything was ready to start. I did not need to talk to anyone. Their inspector showed up about 10 minutes after I got there. I left them to themselves as I inspected everything. After the inspector left, I showed them many areas that had holes to the outside, wood that was missing, wood that was not even fastened (I have videos and pictures of everything). They told me that they would have several people there tomorrow to move the furniture and to close all the holes in the exterior walls. There is a room that has an old painting on the walls and ****** was adamant that nothing got on the walls. Her brother told me that she was going to have the painting/mural restored because it is very old. The room was packed with stuff so there is no way we could protect the walls or the contents even though we were to spray a portion of the wall in that room.
  The day we started the job, there were still areas that needed to be covered to protect the outside of the house, electric wires missing and plumbing not finished where we had to spray. They had two small ceilings that still needed to be removed.
  Normally the exterior siding is completed and there is no issue of foam reaching the outside. The siding was about 25% complete, materials on the job and no workers. I asked her brother who was on site, “Why is the siding not complete?” He told me that the main person quit showing up. I told him I knew of a great siding company. That is when he started talking. He said he would have to finish it himself because ****** has spent more money on upgrades and things not in the budget and money is very, very tight until they get the next bank draw. So, I asked, “What kicks off the next draw, the insulation?” He said,” That will help, we also have to get a couple other things done”. Now I am very concerned. ****** told us that she had a draw coming November 6th. Her brother just told me that certain things must be finished before the bank will give another draw that she is spending more money on upgrades and additional things that are not in the budget. As I look around, I wonder why the siding people stopped coming, where are all the workers they said would be there, why are projects started and not completed (electric wires, carpentry…) so I called her husband and told him what happened. I asked to talk to the bank to find out when the money would be released. Is it the 6th or is it based on work done? If she is overspending, will she be able to pay me with the bank draw, or will she have to divide it up to get the other workers back. They told me that they didn’t need the bank draw, that they sold stocks and had enough to pay me. So, I asked for the other 30% since I only agreed to the 20% because they said they did not have the 50% deposit. They wrote us a check. We worked for the next several days and then we received a notice from our bank that the check bounced. I sent a text to ******, and she said it was the banks’ fault and I could call them. When I asked for the bank’s information, she kept putting me off. Then she said she did not feel comfortable giving me more money, it wasn’t more money, it was making the bad check good. After about 2 hours of this, I told her we were leaving. We stopped everything, loaded up our tools/equipment and left. That is why in the pictures the mess is not cleaned up. 
  We redeposited the check as instructed by ******, and it cleared the bank. We have now been paid 50% of the job.
  The total amount completed is about 70%, maybe more.
  
  I am still willing to complete the job if we can agree on terms that works for all involved.

  Customer response

  12/26/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, reasons for rejection are included below.

  The overall cleanup is not so much my complaint, as we did ask them to not return. However, we have had multiple other spray foam professionals and industry contractors in the home since Retrofoam sprayed and have said that this job was significantly over-sprayed. Everyone who has seen their work is in agreement that they likely used 70% of their foam allocated in 20% of the project. From this perspective, I could see how Dan would believe they completed 70%. That is certainly not the case though, as broken down in the chart attached of their original quote. The sheer amount of foam that was scraped off and created 2 feet deep of debris is enough proof that there was way too much foam sprayed. As far as application of the foam, there are significant drips and globs of foam that were dripped on every single wall where they sprayed the roof deck above. As other foam professionals have told us, this happens when the foam is not heated properly. I can understand a fine mist, this was not that. Every single wall on the third floor of the home has to be scraped clean and now sanded down before painting because of this negligence on their part.
  
  Dan states that he had a conversation with us after the inspector left. This is a complete lie, Dan left before the inspector left. In the 10 minutes that Dan was there before the inspector, we did a quick walk through of the areas that they were spraying. We asked him about the holes that only had house wrap over them without siding, he indicated that foam may get through them and we would need to scrape it off before installing the siding. We were OK with this and saw no concerns with his response. He did not mention anything else to us as a concern for him, other than we would need to empty the garage before they began, which we agreed to. A few hours later he called me and told me that we needed to sign a waiver because they would not be responsible for anything in our home. I asked if they would be protecting the items attached, like mantles and the large bar to which he said yes, but would not guarantee that they would not get foam on them. I was very hesitant to sign such a blanket waiver but did because I was having surgery the next morning and wanted everything to get completed and go smoothly. The room with the mural and the adjacent room were never discussed or included in the quote. We were using these rooms for storage to keep everything out of the way of the spray team. There was absolutely zero reason for Dan or anyone from his team to enter or photograph those rooms. In their contract, it states they only need a 3 foot path to be able to spray. Dan was asking us to clear every item out every room which is not realistic or reasonable. On the first day the team showed up we had 5 people, including myself and my husband, to help move anything needed out of the way. After that, we had intentionally not scheduled anyone to work, except for one person to be the point of contact on site, as it states in their contract that no one should be in the home while they are spraying.
  
  This house is under a full renovation that is not yet completed, of course there will be some wires and plumbing that are still needed to be put in or framing that is incomplete. The inspector that was there while Dan was there was the electrical inspector who we asked to come give us a consult and ensure we were doing everything correctly before we finished it. This is all completely normal for a project like this. It concerns me that Dan feels that is out of place, as he is in the insulation business and should know what in-process construction looks like. This also has zero baring on their ability to complete the job. There was no mention of any walls or ceilings that needed to be removed ahead of time. When our worker informed us that they made him remove portions of ceiling and walls, I was shocked. They did not call us in advance and ask or let us know they needed this removed. I found out only after that it happened. We now have to pay to have these areas replaced which we would not have otherwise.
  
  Quite honestly, Retro foam was hired to complete a task, to spray foam insulation, not to inquire about who we have working on our jobsite, where things are in process that don’t pertain to them, or how we are paying for anything, even their job. Absolutely anything else that is happening on our jobsite not directly related to their ability to complete the scope of work they were hired to do is none of their concern.
  
  However, in full transparency of this complaint, I will address the comments about lack of workers and finances, etc. Firstly, this renovation project is homeowner (myself and my husband) managed with the help of my brother, who is a licensed contractor. We are doing the majority of the work ourselves, we do not have a specialized team of workers or a company who is completing this project. We hire day laborers as we need them to help out. We have a small construction budget for the size of our project, and rely heavily on the construction draws from our loan to cover all of the related expenses. As in any construction draw process, draws are never pre-scheduled. They are based on when work is completed. The foam work was scheduled to be completed the week of November 6th, which would have triggered a large draw to be received that week. I never said it would be in our bank account on November 6th. I was clear it would be sometime that week, AFTER the job was completed. In the weeks between my request for the 20% down payment and start of the foam, my husband and I decided to liquify some stocks to give a little more cushion to cover a few additional expenses we’d incurred at the house. This also gave us the available cash to pay for the project in full without needing to wait for the loan money to be released.
  
  Because the contract said no one should be on site while they are spraying, we did not have anyone hired for the days Retrofoam was scheduled, with the exception of one worker to be available on site, as I was having surgery, so neither my husband nor I could be easily available. As far as the siding person no longer showing up, he was a day laborer who we had hired to work regularly. He had a series of personal life events (death in the family, moved away, lost transportation, etc) that he was no longer able to make it to the jobsite. It had nothing to do with us. Day laborers often come and go, this is nothing out of the norm in construction. But again, has absolutely nothing to do Retrofoams ability to do their job. To reiterate, my complaint is not with any foam that seeped through the holes that did not have siding.
  
  When Dan called my husband, he was belligerent, accusatory, defaming and downright mean. I was laying in pre-op at the hospital waiting to go back for surgery when he called. Dan accused us of crying poor, lying, having no money and demanded that he speak with the bank about our finances and threatened that if we don’t give him another 30%, they would be leaving the job. We told him that our personal finances are none of his business and that we would not be threatened. He removed his workers that day after only installing plastic on a portion of the job. While I was out of commission from surgery, Pam and my husband spoke and came to an agreement which ended up for us to give Retrofoam the other 30%. They returned to work 2 days later, sprayed the third floor roof decks and 2nd floor rim joists, and one exterior wall on the second floor. The scraped approximately 70% of what had been sprayed before things went poorly with Dan again.
  
  Because the funds used to cover the other 30% of the job came from our ****** ****** investment accounts, and not a standard checking account, things got muddled up a bit. Typically, they will automatically transfer funds into the specific account that checks are written from to cover them out of our portfolio account. In this instance, they did not. When we noticed that they had not transferred the funds, we called them and they assured us it was still going to be paid. But then it was returned regardless. It took them a week to return it, and that was why. There was some confusion between our personal banker and the back office and ultimately it was inadvertently returned. I was incredibly apologetic and offered to send them money right away to cover it. However, as stated in my original complaint, I found out that they would be leaving without a return date to finish the job. Dan refused to give me a return date for his team, gaslighting me, telling me it was up to me when his team would return. To which I was uncomfortable having any further conversations about finances. Dan became rude and petty, ultimately ending in my request for them to leave permanently. Dan’s response was “I’m glad you admitted you fired us”.   
  
  If they were a company who is trying to do ethical business they would not be so concerned where our money comes from or how they are going to get paid. If they go into every job more worried about customer finances to the point of being unprofessional, then they should not be in business. At the end of the day, if they do not get paid, there are many legal tactics for them to retrieve their money.
  
  Attached is the outline and contract of the work that was included in the original agreement and what was completed with associated monetary values from Retrofoam. We are asking for a refund of the 30% for the work not completed but paid for, in addition for the associated costs to repair the ceiling/wall that was removed and to cover the extensive cleanup from all of the drips on the walls. Having Dan back in our home to complete the work is not an option. I do have additional photos of the drips on walls and of the text messages sent between Dan and I.
  
  Regards,
  
  ****** ******
  

  Customer response

  02/16/2024

  Hello, 

  The only items that are applicable of the list sent are the proof of ACH withdraws and the contract that we signed. Over the course of the last month, we have now learned from two other foam companies in the area that there are significant workmanship issues with the foam where there are huge air gaps and areas where the foam was sprayed cold and did not adhere to the roof of the home, making the foam inoperable. In addition, Retro foam has placed a lien on our property demanding that we pay them as ADDITIONAL  $19k. This is not coherent with their contract. Considering that they only completed 20% of the project and received 50% pay, this is considered an illegal lien and in my opinion an act of paper terrorism as an act of retaliation due to my google review and submission of this BBB complaint. We have obtained legal counsel to aid us with this matter, however I've attached copies of the illegal lien they've placed and their demand letter for your records. Thank you! 

  

  Business response

  03/11/2024

  I disagree with most of what ****** has said. The pictures ****** shows is of incomplete work since she told us we were fired.  If ****** is wanting to offer a settlement, her attorney has my attorneys contact information.

  Customer response

  03/15/2024

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, reasons for rejection are included below.
  
  Regards,
  
  ****** ******
  

  Customer response

  03/26/2024

  Better Business Bureau:

  I would like to reject the offer of Mediation for complaint ID ********. Because we seeking court mediation and litigation, I do not feel as though we would be able to come to an agreement vis BBB mediation. To be clear, we have not resolved anything, but am going to allow the courts to decide the fate of Retro foam compensation to me. 

  Regards,

  ****** ******

• Initial Complaint

  11/08/2023

  Complaint Type:

  Service or Repair Issues

  Status:

  Resolved

  More info

  We hired Cincinnati Retrofoam to insulate our Pole barn with 2” +- 1/2 in closed cell spray foam. On Wednesday, October 25, 2023, Cinncinnati Retrofoam sprayed closed cell foam entirely too thin, whole areas were missed and overspray on the ceiling and doors. After talking to the crew sent to do the work, they admitted to being new, inexperienced, and unprepared for the job. We contacted Dan and he personally came out and looked at the job, saw how bad it was, admitted that his crew was not qualified to do this job and assured us that he personally would make sure the job was done correctly. On Thursday, October 26th 2023 he was found sitting in his car not supervising the work being done, he left before the crew finished and said that all that would be left to do on Friday was clean up. His crew left minutes after he did, we went to out to find that not only was the work not done, that there were still multiple large holes in the foam, some holes were attempted to be filled with open cell foam, and the areas above both garage doors were not even attempted to be insulated. There is even more overspray on the ceiling as it was not masked off as promised by Dan. The foam that is on the walls is not consistent in color, texture, or thickness ( ranging from about half an inch to well over 6 inches. We attempted to make contact with Dan Thursday evening but no calls were returned. Friday Oct 27, Pam called in the morning and we told her we were done, she then said that they were sending the spraying ring to finish, and we once again said no, we were not continuing. We received not further communication until we received an email from the finance company for the fee. We sent him an email letting him know we were attempting to find out the cost to repair his work. His only response was “I disagree”. On Nov 6 we received a letter threatening us with a mechanics lien if we did not pay in 4 days.

  

  Business response

  11/16/2023

  The contract was for work in the house and the pole barn. We were to spray foam the pole barn for $9,040, and also blow in fiberglass insulation in the attic $2,822 a total amount of $11,862.00 for the pole barn. The house we were to blow in fiberglass insulation in the attic and install a section of new soffits for $5,490.  The crew did the spray foam on in the pole barn on 10/25/23.  The homeowner called the office that evening saying that he was not satisfied with the job.  Dan went out that evening and met with both homeowners to look over everything.  Dan said that there were a several spots missed (missed or too thin), and agreed that the spray did not look good, but still served the purpose. Dan told him that the fiberglass team would be out the next day to do the attics and that he would come back with the spray team to take care of the concerns. At that time, the homeowner said that he did not want to have the work done on the house and cancelled that part of the contract.  On 10/26/23, the fiberglass was installed in the attic of the pole barn and Dan came out with the spray team.  Dan had injured/pinched a nerve in his back but did work with the team all day spraying. The car Dan was driving has heated seats, so around 3:30, Dan went to sit in the car with the heated seat to try and relieve any pain. The homeowners came out around that time and came up to the car, and Dan explained this to them. Dan had not only overseen the job, but sprayed most of it himself. The original contract was for 2” of closed cell foam. Because Dan resprayed most of the job, the homeowner received about 4” of closed cell insulation. This was mostly resprayed to make it look better. I told the homeowner we had another few hours and said we can stay and finish it or come back in the morning. The husband asked his wife if she would be home. She said yes and they agreed we could come back the next day to finish. The job was scheduled for 3 days and we were planning on coming back out on Friday, 10/27/23 to finish.  The homeowner called the office on 10/26/23 at 6:28 PM after the office was closed.  Pam returned his call the next morning, 10/27/23, at 7:25 AM.  The homeowner said that he didn't want us to come back to finish.  After we read the complaint on the BBB, the office called and sent 3 emails asking what amount of credit they wanted for the work that was not done.  They finally answered the 3rd email stating they would settle for the $2,822 which is the amount for the fiberglass insulation we installed. So we sprayed 4” of closed cell instead of the 2” like the contract said, twice the labor just to make the homeowner happy, and installed all of the fiberglass in the attic, and they want to pay $2,822.00. I have spent any profit that we would have made, spraying the extra foam to make it look good and the homeowner happy. This, of course, is unacceptable since we have the spray foam 95% complete and the fiberglass 100% complete. The spray foam would be 100% complete if they did not stop us from finishing the final day as they had agreed.

  Customer response

  11/18/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, reasons for rejection are included below.
  
  Their response is only highlighting the issues with doing business with Retrofoam of Cincinnati. That being, that they do not want to address the issues. 1st, it does not address the overspray at all. 2nd, the foam still has multiple holes in it. 3rd, the additional foam that was sprayed is NOT a benefit to us, as it prevents us from framing the interior walls between the posts. This was discussed with Dan when he came out to give us a quote, and it was discussed at great length with Dan again on the evening of the 25th. Bottom line is that this is not what we contracted with them to do. We contracted with them to spray 2” of closed cell foam in accordance to industry standard. We now have varying thicknesses of foam with holes in it and overspray on our ceiling and doors. We gave them the opportunity to make it right and they made it worse. And now they want us to pay for inferior work. They don’t even want to discuss the damages they caused.
  We attempted to upload pictures but the system would not accept them as they were too large.

  Regards,
  
  ***** **********

  
  

  Customer response

  11/27/2023

  Please see the attached pictures and original estimate. The picture of the ceiling is just a small sample as there is overspray along the entire ceiling. As far as finishing, they told us twice they were done. And things got worse when they attempted to fix it. The damages are overspray on the ceiling and door. We are getting a quote for the replacement of those, which will include re insulating the ceiling because the insulation will have to be removed to replace the ceiling.We are hoping to have estimates on the necessary repairs in the next week. We have been told there is no fixing the walls because of the holes. So far the only solution offered is to add to it, but it is already too thick in places. Insulation is no good with holes in it.

  
  

  

  Business response

  12/27/2023

  We have decided to let the customers out of the contract and not pay any money for the work that we did.  A settlement agreement has been signed by all parties.

  Customer response

  01/19/2024

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and find that this resolution is satisfactory to me. 
  
  Regards,
  
  ***** **********
  

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