ComplaintsforBrunsell Lumber & Millwork

• Initial Complaint

  07/19/2023

  Complaint Type:

  Delivery Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  We ordered 4 maple cabinets made by Starmark from Brunsell for $6,498 in 12/2021. The cabinets delivered to our home on 6/22/22 were deemed un-installable by the contractor referred to us by Brunsell. One was not square and its door did not work. One was the wrong size. In addition the maple and veneer used to build the cabinets were unlike the samples in Brunsells showroom. We informed Brunsell via email and in person that we wished to terminate the order and look at a different line of cabinets. Brunsell refused and insisted that replacement cabinets would arrive in about 2 weeks. However we would have to accept delivery of these cabinets without prior inspection. We maintained our desire for a refund and asked that they speak with Starmark about it.We did not hear back from Brunsell, however. In late 7/2022, we called the contractor to ask if he had heard from Brunsell about the cabinets. He, too, had not. In early 8/20/22, we left a recorded message to ask Brunsell to remove the unusable cabinets from our garage. They did not reply. On 9/1/22, we contacted Brunsell to let them know that our window for working on our kitchen had closed and to ask for an amicable end to our relationship. We repeated our request for a refund and asked them again to remove the unusable cabinets from our garage. They wrote back that they "swore" they had been in touch with us and knew they had contacted the contractor and that the cabinets had been in their warehouse for a while. They proposed to make arrangements for the contractor to install the new cabinets ASAP. We replied that we did not agree to this.We filed a DATCP complaint in May 2023, saying that we sought a full refund from Brunsell because the cabinets delivered to us in May 2022 had been sub-standard and because Brunsell failed to deliver acceptable cabinets within the time frame promised. Brunsell replied that their delay was not grounds for granting a refund and said that we had not been in touch.

  Business response

  07/31/2023

  Bottom line, there will be no refund issued and we will give them a little more time to arrange for pick-up or delivery of these cabinets. There is no valid reason to issue a refund when they chose to not get back to us for nearly nine months.

   

  We will give them until the end of August to get these cabinets or we will dispose of them as we see fit. We do not have room to store them indefinitely.

   

  Respectfully,

  
  

  Customer response

  08/16/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID 20346455, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
  
  I wish to express my disappointment in the misrepresentation contained in Brunsell’s account of what occurred between us with respect to the Starmark cabinets that they delivered to us and their lack of customer service. Our complaint remains unaddressed and unresolved. We are particularly troubled by the points below:

  1) Brunsell’s inaccuracy about our dropping out of touch
  Brunsell states in their response to our BBB complaint that we dropped out of communication with them. It was, in fact, Brunsell that dropped out of touch with us.
  

  A) From the end of June 2022 through mid-September 2022, we were in touch with Brunsell on the following dates via email—6/27/22, 6/30/22, 9/1/22, 9/7/22 and 9/14/22—to try to resolve our differences with them. We also stopped by their office twice in early June 2022 and called and left a message once during the first week of August 2022.
  

  B) We heard nothing from Brunsell after 6/30/22 until their response to our 9/1/22 email on 9/2/23. That email informed us for the first time that: Your cabinets have been here for a while, I swear I let you know and I know I told [your contractor] they were here.  I was kind of waiting for [him] to schedule the time to go over there too…I really thought [your contractor] was going to contact you.” However we have documentation from the contractor that he had not been notified as of late July 2022 about these cabinets. Brunsell did contact him in early September because he called on 9/5/22.
  

  C) In the first of two 9/7/22 emails, the designer belatedly explained that she had been out of the office in early 8/22 and “did not get any messages from you while I was off, but I know there was a huge turn over at Brunsell at that time.
  

  D) In her second 9/7/22 email, the designer acknowledged not contacting us: “Since I didn’t hear from you, I just thought that you were working with [your contractor’s schedule, otherwise I would have contacted you.”
  

  E) Neither of us has been in touch with the other since September. When we wrote on 9/14/22 that: “Clearly we have different views on what’s the next best step here. We will be back in touch as soon as we can,” we were looking to find a solution that would work. This statement appears out of context in Brunsell’s reply to our complaint.

  2) Brunsell’s insistence that we accept delivery of the cabinets sight-unseen
  Brunsell has not made it possible for us to inspect the replacement cabinets they have in their possession prior to delivery. Thus we cannot know whether Brunsell has resolved both the structural issues of two of the original cabinets or the cosmetic issues of the other two, as documented by us in an email with photographs sent in May 2022. In fact, they have not told us what replacement cabinets or parts of cabinets they have in their possession. Nor do we know whether any of these replacement cabinets will be acceptable to us. In light of our experience to date, we find it unacceptable to have to accept cabinets we have never seen.
  

  3) Brunsell’s ultimatum to dispose of the replacement cabinets
  When we allowed Brunsell to store the unsatisfactory cabinets in our garage, we expected that they would be there no more than about two weeks after 5/22/22. The replacement cabinets should certainly have arrived by mid-June 2022. We have asked to have the unacceptable cabinets removed multiple times: in our August 2022 phone message; in our 9/1/22 and 9/7/22 emails; and in our complaints to the Department of Agriculture Trade and Consumer Protection and to the BBB in 2023. Brunsell has ignored our request while informing us that, if the replacement cabinets do not leave their warehouse by the end of August 2023, they will dispose of them.
  

  4) Request for mediation
  I ask to engage in mediation with Brunsell and the BBB because Brunsell’s proffered resolution is unacceptable. It costs the business nothing and places on us the entire burden of this interaction gone awry.
  

  Any acceptable solution needs to respect our needs and limits and well as Brunsell’s, as well as how we got here. It thus needs to include Brunsell’s acknowledgement that that they dropped out of touch, that they did not deliver cabinets within the promised time frame, and that they have used our garage as storage since June 2022.
  

  We think that it is fair to ask Brunsell to consider refunding us the money we paid for the cabinets, and we would like to know why they feel it is not fair. However, in the interests of finding an amicable solution, we are open to other possibilities. If mediation leads to our accepting delivery of the cabinets, we also think Brunsell needs to provide us the opportunity to inspect the replacement cabinets prior to delivery within a time frame that works for us.

  Regards,
  
  Daniel Thurs

  Business response

  08/29/2023

  In response to the most recent correspondence we received on this complaint, I will once again point to what they had previously acknowledged (see item E), that the last communication we had from them was "Clearly we have different views on what's the next best step here. We will be back in touch as soon as we can". I'm not sure how this statement can be taken out of context. It's pretty unambiguous. We were told she would get back to us; she didn't. This was almost a year ago.

   

  We also never told them that they could not inspect the cabinets before being delivered. Our cabinet salesperson is willing to meet with them at our location to inspect these cabinets. This is not an unusual request. Saves potential wasted trips for our drivers. However, this inspection needs to happen sooner rather than later. They can contact our sales rep (Kris) to make this happen. They know how to reach her. I can also have Kris reach out to them. We can remove any of the unsatisfactory cabinets from their garage once the cabinets we still have in our posssesion are delivered. If we don't hear from them to set up an inspection appointment by September 15th, I will have Kris reach out to them. Either way, this inspection needs to happen no later than Friday September 29th.

   

  Please also let them know that this will be our final response to this complaint. I am unwilling to participate in any further back and forth. They need to make arrangements to inspect these cabinets and, if acceptable based on normal cabinet construction standards, allow us to deliver them shortly thereafter. Otherwise, we have nothing further to discuss and we will dispose of the cabinets as we see fit. We have very limited space for storage and are unwilling to do so for very much longer.

  Customer response

  08/30/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID 20346455, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
  
  

  I pointed out in my last reply that our contacts with Brunsell since 2022 have all been initiated by us. Our most recent communications--after we said we'd be in touch again-- have been through DATCP and through the BBB. We included copies of our email communication in our last response to BBB to ground our discussion in what was actually written because Brunsell's statements seem to change over time. First they said they had contacted us when the cabinets arrived. Then they acknowledged they might not have. Then they said we could not enter their warehouse to inspect the cabinets prior to delivery. Now they say we need to contact them to arrange for inspection. They are no longer insisting that they will dispose of the cabinets because have limited storage space and yet they have ignored our request to have them remove the unacceptable cabinets from our garage where they abandoned them over a year ago. They also now say we will have to accept the cabinets if they adhere to normal standards of cabinetry. But who is to determine those standards?
  

  
  

  Is the BBB willing to mediate the discussion they say we need to have with them? We do not feel assured we will get a fair or honest hearing if we contact them on our own and understood that mediation would consist of a facilitated conversation. Are we mistaken in this?
  

  
  

  Thank you,

  Dan and Carrie

  

  
  
  Regards,
  
  Daniel Thurs

• Initial Complaint

  10/05/2022

  Complaint Type:

  Product Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  Ordered 13 new windows in May 2022 from Brunsells, worked with **** ******** written and verbal instructions multiple times on the color of the windows as some of the interior would be black and some would be white with all the exterior being ******************* showed us one option of window that would come in black interior, so we chose that window **** drafted the order numerous times because of his errors number of windows ordered, sizing and color. I never once changed up anything that I wanted number, size, color, nothing. Both me and my contractor had to go through the orders and make notes to his error multiple times Order arrived to my house on 9/16/22 but there were 14 windows delivered. We opened the boxes to find 10 of the windows that were supposed to be black were white *********** started contact with the store speaking to **** first who was rude and denied everything even though we told him we have a paper trail of his errors and our corrections **** offered to send the windows out to a local painter to have them painted and we would have to pay half. We denied this offer and asked to speak to his manager We met with *****, ****************** on 9/30/22, showed him ****s numerous errors. He offered to have the windows painted by a local painter and we denied this offer. I told ************ wanted to break ties as we do not believe Brunsells can be further trusted and without hesitation he agreed upon taking back all of the windows and giving me a full refund. ***** confirmed window pick up with me on 10/3/22 via email, letting me know the truck would pick up the windows around 1pm and he would initiate the refund when they had the windows. On 10/3/22 my contractor and I received an email from *****, VP of finance who said it was an unacceptable solution and we could have them painted. My contractor wrote an email back and denied his offer stating we already accepted ****** offer. I sent an email to ***** on 10/4/22 confirming window

  Business response

  10/13/2022

  October 12, 2022
  
  RE: BBB ID# ********
  
  Brunsell Lumber denies the customers assertion that the miscommunication is predominantly Brunsells fault. We do not
  deny that there was miscommunication. The homeowner hired a friend of hers (****), who is not a contractor, to manage a
  window replacement project. The Brunsell employee that **** was working with has over 26 years of experience with us
  and has been involved in upwards of ***** of these transactions. We always recommend to our consumer customers that
  they work with a qualified, credentialed contractor. Especially with windows. There are too many potential negative
  consequenses with ordering and/or installing them incorrectly. There was certainly miscommunication on this order but
  on both sides, at a minimum.
  When **** was ready to go ahead with the order, he signed off on the quote that clearly states there were 14 windows with
  black exteriors and white interiors. These particular windows are not available with black interiors, which our employee
  found out early on in the process, well before the order was placed. Our employee states that **** was told this and he
  subsequently signed off on the order. The homeowner received exactly what **** signed off on including the quantity and
  the color. There are no defects or other issues with these windows.
  When the homeowner received the windows, she said she had expected a total of 13 windows and that 10 of them were
  supposed to have black interiors. This is not what was signed off on. That being the case, since there had obviously been
  some confusion, Brunsell tried to make things right as we always do. Our store manager at first offered that Brunsell
  would pay for one-half of the painting cost, a $1,900 value. That was refused. He then offered to have them painted at no
  cost to the homeowner, a $3,800 value. This means we were willing to, at our cost, send out a truck, load and securely
  pack the windows, take them to our painter, unload them again. Once they were painted (about two weeks), we would
  send another truck, load and securely pack them again, and deliver them back to the homeowner. All at no cost to her,
  including the $3,800 bill we that would get from our painter. Again refused.
  That is when I (VP Finance) became involved. She told our store manager, and then myself in an email that she lost
  confidence that Brunsell could complete the job correctly. At this point, she had (and still has) all of the windows per the
  signed quote. All the correct size, style, quantities,etc.
  I reiterated our offer to cover the cost of painting the 10 windows in question by a professional painter. I also offered to
  refund the one window she wasnt expecting, even though it was signed off on. She again refused. There is absolutely no
  issue with these windows other than her expectation that 10 of them would have black interiors. This could be easily
  rectified at no cost to the homeowner and has been offered on multiple occassions. This is something that we are not
  legally or ethically obligated to do but we always try to make things right She reiterated her feelings that she couldnt
  trust us anymore. I stated to her that that is not a valid or legal justification for breaching a contract, especially when she
  has all of the windows as ordered and we have offered to have the ones in question painted at no cost to her. I also told her
  that this offer is not open-ended and will not be held open indefinately. She has until October 20 th to accept the offer. If it
  is not accepted by then, we will no longer agree to do any of the above. We have done everything we can to resolve this
  and she has refused us at every turn. There is no logical reason to refuse this remedy other than getting her pound of
  flesh, something I cannot and will not abide.
  Her request for a full refund is and will continue to be denied. There is no justification for that outcome.
  VP Finance
  Brunsell Lumber & Millwork

  Customer response

  10/19/2022

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
  
  I request more information and for Brunsells to make good on some of the numerous promises that were made. Please see attached letter, sent also to ***** at Brunsells via email today. 

  
  Regards,
  
  *******************************

  Personally, I will discount much of Mr. ******* message to the BBB because so many of the things he recounts his employees told him simply can not be reconciled with the written documentation of events. With that in mind, I will focus on resolution.
   
  I have to admit that the process of identifying a resolution has been confusing. While I have never rejected any of the several different offers of resolution from Brunsells, the reality is that I received several substantively different offers in short orderwhich understandably would cause confusion. On 28 September, employee ****************** offered repainting with me paying $1900 (this is the resolution **************** referenced that he erroneously stated as having been made by store manager, ****************). In two emails on 3 October and 5 October, **************** strenuously insisted that **************** had offered on 29 September to have the windows repainted and provide a refund of $4000 from the total price of the order. In the 5 October email, **************** also offered to have the windows repainted with no exchange of money either way, but contingent that I accept that offer no later than the end of 7 October. This list does not include the resolution of a full refund that **************** and I amicably agreed to (as documented in audio recording of conversation on 29 September and then confirmed in emails with **************** on 30 September and 3 October) that **************** subsequently rejected and now characterizes as pound of flesh vengeance. It would seem, but is not entirely clear, that these different proposals have been unilaterally withdrawn, and I should be responding to the proposal referenced by **************** in the response he submitted to the BBB (my only confusion there stems from the fact that he references his offer from 5 October but apparently has amended the date that I must respond from 7 October to 20 October). 
   
  In order to be able to accept any offer of repainting, I would require more information. Through all of the different proposals from different representatives of Brunsells, no one from Brunsells took the step to share any substantive details about the repainting. In his 28 September email, ****************** indicated that Brunsells would send the affected windows to our local finisher, and that single phrase represents the entirety of specifics that I have been given to date in regard to repainting. I would also appreciate **************** making good on the offer of a $4,000 credit back to my credit card.
  
  To fully educate myself before committing to any course of action, I require the following information:
   
           Name and address of this local finisher
           Reviews of work from this finisher
           Description of the processhow the white paint be removed, etc
           Photos or examples of previous work, particularly with examples of windows that involved paint removal
           Warranty regarding quality of work by this local finisher
           Written confirmation that this process will not compromise the windows warranty with ********
           What sheen and color black will be used (if this process had ever been proposed at the beginning of this odyssey, of course I would have wanted the color to match the black that Im using on baseboards, window/door casings, and cabinetry throughout the rest of the first floor)
           Written confirmation that windows will be picked up and returned by Brunsells at no cost to me
           Opportunity to inspect the windows in person after they are refinished and before they are returned to my house
           Written indication of timeline for work to be completed
           Copy of receipt for work as documentation of this local finisher having done the work
  
  I look forward to a response and resolution. 
  

  Business response

  10/30/2022

  see attached

  we are ready to address the complaint 

  Customer response

  11/08/2022

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
  
  

  I have to admit to being baffled by this process. Contrary to Mr. ******* claims, I genuinely do want an amicable resolution to this issue. But I am troubled by his claim that I am not acting in good faith, particularly given my first two interactions with him, wherein (1) he unilaterally backed out of a resolution to the issue that his store manager, ***************************, and I had agreed upon, and (2) he lied to me in writing regarding a proposed resolution. The details and timelines of those two events are:

   

  Backing out of agreed resolution:

   

  1.     On 29 September, I had an in-person meeting with **************** that included my friend, *********************, who has assisted me with this project. I was already concerned about the direction and tone of conversations about the dispute,**** is my right under ********* lawI recorded the conversation. During that conversation, I proposed, and **************** agreed, to have the windows returned to Brunsells and I would receive a full refund. ****************, in his role as store manager, accepted that proposal.

  2.     On 30 September and 3 October, **************** and I traded several emails to set up the logistics of having the windows picked up. This culminated with an email from **************** at 6:52 a.m. on 3 October in which he stated We will be picking up the windows on Wed 10/5 around 1pm. Our driver will give you a call when he is heading your way. We will credit your card once we have picked up all the windows and returned them to Brunsell.

  3.     Later on 3 October, I received the first email communication from ****************. In his second email, at 1:49 p.m. on 3 October, he stated that is not a reasonable solution and it is simply unreasonable. He has since refused to acknowledge this resolution as being valid.

   

  In communication to me and with the Better Business Bureau, he has characterized this sequence as a demand from me and has claimed it is evidence of me being vindictive and not being willing to act in good faith. My understanding is that it was an agreement that I had reached with the store manager, ****************, who was representing Brunsells. Rather than disparaging me, perhaps this would have been an opportunity for **************** to educate and train **************** about what,in Mr. ******* opinion, constitutes a reasonable vs. an unreasonable agreement to enter into?

   

  Lying regarding a proposed resolution:

   

  1.     On 3 October, **************** claimed via email that, during the in-person conversation on 29 September that I recorded (which **************** was not party to), ***** also offered to discount the overall order which we can re-visit once the windows have been repainted and returned to the worksite.

  2.     I reviewed the audio recording of the conversation, and no such offer was made.My friend, ****, responded by email and informed **************** that he was incorrect in his claim that such an offer was made.

  3.     On 5 October, **************** responded by email and reiterated his claim that such and offer was made. He further specified the point during the conversation that the offer was made (presumably recounting Mr. ******* version of the conversation)and that the offer was for an approx. $4,000 refund from the original cost of the windows.

  4.     Again,I reviewed the audio recording, and no such offer was made.

  5.     On 5 October, **** emailed **************** to inform him that the conversation had been recorded, and we could verify that he was not speaking truthfully.

  6.     *************** has never acknowledged that email, referenced that alleged offer he so strenuously insisted occurred, or broached the subject of a ~$4,000 refund again.

   

  This claim that he no longer acknowledges constitutes a ~$4,000 discrepancy from any offer **************** claims, and a ~$5,900 difference from an offer I received from employee *************************** the day prior to the in-person meeting. This illustrates both Mr. ******* duplicity and the level of confusion imparted on my decision making by the actions of Brunsells employees. I should hope it also makes clear why I am distrustful of any statement or offer of resolution **************** makes without full specifics included in writing and reviewed by the Better Business Bureau.

   

  In my previous email communicated through the Better Business Bureau, I requested information needed to assess an offer from Brunsells to have the windows repainted. I should point out that nearly six weeks have elapsed since I received the first written offer to have the windows repainted, and no Brunsells representative has shown the initiative to share these common-sense details.

   

  In response to those requests for specifics about the repainting, Mr. ******* response that I received on 30 October was incomplete to say the least.Specifically, I asked for the name and reviews of the painter: he refused to share that information. I asked for specifics regarding timeline, exact process of repainting, logistics of pick-up and delivery, etc: he responded that he would be willing to describe them if I asked (IN RESPONSE TO ME ASKING FOR THAT VERY INFORMATION). Most troubling, I asked for guarantees of the quality of the work and a guarantee that this work would not affect the factory ******** warrantee: he simply ignored these requests. In response to a direct, itemized request for information needed assess the sincerity and quality of Mr. ******* proposal, **************** provided absolutely no new information at all. None.

   

  I am at a loss for what I would have to do to actually get this information from ***************, as asking for it in my previous message did not elicit a positive response from him. It did elicit insults, claims on his behalf about my intentions, and threats of litigation. Yet without that information, and particularly without a written guarantee as to the quality of the repainting and a written guarantee that the repainting would not affect the manufacturer warranty, I struggle to see how what he has offered to date constitutes a serious offer of remediation.

  
  Regards,
  
  *******************************

*Some consumers may elect to not publish the details of their complaints, some complaints may not meet BBB's standards for publication, or BBB may display a portion of complaints when a high volume is received for a particular business. ↩